Still coming to terms with the concept of manipulation

 Still coming to terms with the concept of manipulation because of 2 incompatible beliefs:

> manipulation is everywhere;

> manipulation is wrong.

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> If manipulation is morally wrong and it is everywhere, including your behaviour, then you are imoral

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I believe there are 2 ways to get something done:

> Psyop people into wanting to do it;

> Make it so that doing it is easier than not doing it;

Most things in life are about human coordination.

> coordination requires persuasion.

Where do you draw the moral line between persuasion and manipulation? 

If they were the same thing then either getting things done would be immoral or manipulation is not bad.

There must be a line between persuasion and manipulation.

Right now to me that line is set by wether you act in good or bad faith.

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Blurry asked "What’s the difference between manipulate and influence?" and said that "“Manipulate” suggests something perverse."

João said that "Manipulation is wrong. Influence isn't. They're very similar, but the intention is completely different."

I think we are coming to a similar conclusion when he sais “intention” and I say “good faith”, but I disagree and he sais that acting in good faith can be wrong because it might hurt the other person. To me, that speaks to your poor understanding of the world and subsequent inadequacy of solutions rather than the morality of the way in which you acted.

Abstract Fairy came in the discussion to mention alignment.

"the secret is alignment

i want my benefit

you want your benefit

if we have mutual benefits (i.e. alignment) we cooperate

ethical persuasion is showing how we are aligned"

I really like the alignment frame and joining it with "good faith" and "intention" made me wonder if we were coming to a devision between manipulation and influence based on wether our actions were rooted by love for the other or not.

Abstract then went on to describe manipulation as hijacking ooda loops. (Good explanation of OODA Loops here) (I stick don't understand this concept well enough to even make an assessment of wether it means anything)

Relevant thread:

https://twitter.com/jose_goncalves_/status/1572637237678059527